Our “Entrepreneurs in Space” series’ first episode features John Thornton of Astrobotic, who talks with the Coalition for Deep Space Exploration (CDSE) CEO and President Dr. Mary Lynne Dittmar about developing a completely new business model and knocking on doors until people started believing in the project. Thornton speaks about Astrobotic’s vision for making the Moon accessible to the world, which for him and his team starts with transportation.
Astrobotic is developing commercial lunar landers. That’s right: for the first time in history, private Moon landers will take science experiments and technology to the lunar surface. The company’s first lander, Peregrine, is launching next year and will enable testing of various technologies that are key for Artemis, NASA’s program to return humans to the Moon in this decade. Another one of their landers, Griffin, will be launching VIPER, NASA’s water-seeking Moon rover.
Learn more about CDSE member company Astrobotic:
@astrobotic
www.astrobotic.com
Follow the Coalition for Deep Space Exploration:
@XploreDeepSpace
www.exploredeepspace.com
Our “Entrepreneurs in Space” series’ first episode features John Thornton of Astrobotic, who talks with the Coalition for Deep Space Exploration (CDSE) CEO and President Dr. Mary Lynne Dittmar about developing a completely new business model and knocking on doors until people started believing in the project. Thornton speaks about Astrobotic’s vision for making the Moon accessible to the world, which for him and his team starts with transportation.
Astrobotic is developing commercial lunar landers. That’s right: for the first time in history, private Moon landers will take science experiments and technology to the lunar surface. The company’s first lander, Peregrine, is launching next year and will enable testing of various technologies that are key for Artemis, NASA’s program to return humans to the Moon in this decade. Another one of their landers, Griffin, will be launching VIPER, NASA’s water-seeking Moon rover.
Learn more about CDSE member company Astrobotic:
@astrobotic
www.astrobotic.com
Follow the Coalition for Deep Space Exploration:
@XploreDeepSpace
www.exploredeepspace.com
Mary Lynne Dittmar: 0:11
So what does it really take to launch a space company? Would your ideas survive in zero G or burn out on the launch pad? Is space only for aerospace giants?
John Thornton: 0:26
Being a small start up, one of the biggest challenges was walking down the street, talking to anybody and saying, Hey, I'm building a mission to go to the moon and I'm gonna build a business around that. Oh, by the way, it's only ever been done by three superpowers before, but our little startup can actually do this. We knew that there could be something there. But we had to go out and convince people that, yeah, there really is something there. And yes, it can really be done commercially and affordably. Yes, the time is now to get that done,
Mary Lynne Dittmar: 0:26
Today's deep space podcast kicks off several segments on entrepreneurship in space. What is the current state of space entrepreneurship? Those successes and failures? What are some of the emerging trends to be mindful of and the key players to watch? How did companies navigate the space investment landscape on the way to launch? Joining us today is president and CEO of a company driving new innovation in space. Please welcome John Thornton of Astrobotic. John, Thanks for joining us. Can you tell us about the vision of Astrobotic? Where do you want to take this company?
John Thornton: 1:32
Astrobotic is fundamentally a space robotics company. And our goal is to make space accessible to the world. Our first big objective and main area focus right now is making the moon accessible to the world. And for us, that starts with transportation. So, towards that, we're building a delivery service to take payloads from all over the world up to the surface of the moon. And then once on the moon, we provide those payloads. Are customers power and communication for for operating their missions. So ultimately, we're like a one stop shop for all of your lunar needs. In the future, we see Space Robotics being cross cutting for the moon and many other destinations in low earth orbit all the way up to and through Mars and deep space destinations.
Mary Lynne Dittmar: 2:14
That's awesome. So you're not just the one stop shop for transportation, But once folks get their with their payloads, you're gonna provide with the basic infrastructure that they need to operate.
John Thornton: 2:24
That's right. Yeah. We provide power and communications, which are the two basics that that most payloads look for. We can also actually drive payloads across the surface of the moon with a mobile payload platform. So we have Rovers that scientists can attach their instruments to weaken, drive them across the surface and provide all of the power and data infrastructure to get that data back home to the scientists.
Mary Lynne Dittmar: 2:47
So Astrobotics is a participant in the CLIPS program, right?
John Thornton: 2:51
That's right.
Mary Lynne Dittmar: 2:51
Can you tell us a little bit about that?
John Thornton: 2:54
CLIPS is a NASA program. It's commercial lunar payload service is, and it's a It's a fantastic forward leaning program where, where NASA and Government have said okay, we're gonna Instead of doing missions ourselves, we're gonna go buy commercial services, much like how they buy a launch launch vehicle today. So they buy a ticket. They put their payload on top of the lander, and then we take it all the way to that to the surface of the moon. So with CLIPS, it's an opportunity for NASA payloads and people all over the country to work with NASA to develop payloads to be sent to the surface, the moon. And then NASA simply buys a ticket for those payments to be sent up.
Mary Lynne Dittmar: 3:32
So when he expecting this to launch? What's the name of your lander.
John Thornton: 3:36
Our first mission is going to go at the summer of 2021. The lander that's gonna be going in The 1st 1 is called Peregrine, and it can carry about up to up to 200 kilograms of payload of the surface of the moon.
Mary Lynne Dittmar: 3:49
Well, that's amazing. So So John would have been. The biggest challenge is to making a business model work for space.
John Thornton: 3:58
One of the first challenges we have is that we chose a market that did not exist. So one of the biggest things that we had to do was go around to the world and convince people that it should exist on and that we should have regular routine access to the moon on being a small start up. You know, one of the biggest challenges, but was walking down the street talking to anybody in thing. Hey, uh, I'm building a mission to go to the moon, and I'm gonna build a business around that and no, by the way, it's only ever been done by three superpowers before, but our little startup can actually do this. Um, the skepticism around that was very, very difficult to overcome. But once we showed that there was demand, once we started to capture some early payload, some of the first lunar payload so ever people started to understand that Yeah, this is really could couldn't really work on it could be a really, really great late to get affordable access to the surface of the moon. And then the one big tipping points is when the U. S government recognized that and started the clips program up on Dhe. Now is, uh is the largest customers of the world for earlier delivery pay. Lip service is
Mary Lynne Dittmar: 5:05
So basically, you were not responding to an existing demand. You, in effect, had to seed the demand, if you will, and then offer up basically the capability to meet it.
John Thornton: 5:18
In many respects, Yes. It's not typically how I advise you to start a company, but that that is what we did. We knew that there was probably pent up demand because there had been only a handful of missions since the Apollo era. That's on order of 50 years of pent up interest in the moon that we hadn't gone back. So we knew that there could be something there. But we had to go out and convince people that, yeah, there really is something there. And yes, it can really be done commercially and affordably. And yes, the time is now to get that done. But that's a big part of the reason that that it took 12 years to get back the company bill because we were going after a market that just did not simply exist when we got started in 2007.
Mary Lynne Dittmar: 6:00
So I know you can't, um, talk about anything that would be proprietary either to you or to your customers. But to what extent can you talk a little bit about your customer base? Can you tell us, Is this business to business sorts of relationships or business to government relationships? Um, downstream relationships. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
John Thornton: 6:24
Sure, Yeah, We actually make all of our payload deals public, so they're they're all listed on our Web sites. We have. The largest recent deal was with NASA for the CLIPS program, they secured up to 14 NASA payloads to be sent to the surface moon. Um and then we have another 14 non NASA payloads. And that's an array of other space agencies to commercial organizations two scientists and explorers to folks that are just doing marketing on the surface, the moon to other small businesses that are trying to build businesses on the moon. So the whole array and variety of different interests So you could almost imagine all the different interests of packages on the back of a UPS truck. And, uh, you know what? What, where all the packages were going and what are the figures that they're all doing? It's a little bit like that for the moon. We have a wide array of different packages that are gonna be sent up to the surface on were simply the delivery vehicle between shell delivery vehicle. If you will take all this up
Mary Lynne Dittmar: 7:24
The DHL delivery vehicle, So can you mention who your partners are?
John Thornton: 7:29
Yeah, sure. So DHL is one of our partners on which is why I mentioned. So DHL is interested in being able to ship things the surface of the moon just like they ship to every country in the world. Um, and, uh, that's 11 partner. We have another partner that wants to create a laser communication system from the surface of the moon. Um, we have another one that's sending human ashes up to the surface. We have a program internal called DHL Moon Box, where individuals consent things up the surface of the moon. We have a rover from Carnegie Mellon's that's gonna be sent up to the surface. Luna 1st 1 let's see what else. We also have ah rovers from, uh, Europe that want to go there. There's a small one with with legs that wants to walk across the surface of the moon. Um, so it's a whole array of interesting books and payloads that want to go up.
Mary Lynne Dittmar: 8:21
But you're not doing all this on one mission, right?
John Thornton: 8:24
Actually, we are. All of those payloads are going on just our first mission. So we are accumulating a fair number of payloads. About 20 or so payloads will fly on our first mission.
Mary Lynne Dittmar: 8:35
Fantastic. I'm looking forward to that..... And I bet you are too.
John Thornton: 8:40
Absolutely
Mary Lynne Dittmar: 8:42
So, John, sort of a little bit higher order question. Can you tell us a little bit about how is NASA's focus on commercial space affected your business?
John Thornton: 8:52
NASA's focus on commercial space has been a boon for us. So we started 12 years ago as a company, and at the time we were focused on SBIR kind of opportunities with NASA. But over time that partnership grew and we showed that we could deliver technology reliably for for what they were looking for. Um, And then NASA took the next step and said, Hey, we're gonna create this program called Catalyst, which was a no funds Exchanged Space Act agreement where they could actually have NASA personnel work on our lander and that gave that gave us access to, you know, some of the best engineers in the world to help build our commercial service. Um, and NASA did it because they wanted to see how small companies like us would go about building those kinds of businesses and also because they wanted, uh, the service to actually exist. Um, s over time, that partnership was very successful for us. It helped at other commercial partnerships with NASA were successful. Like like tops, for example. Um and then, Ah, the next thing was CLIPS. NASA said OK, we've been working with these companies we think they captured in this commercially, and now they're now they're going to be buying those service is So the fact that NASA recognizes how to build businesses and how to grow commercial businesses is really a marker of success for the agency. And and one of the bacon very confidently claimed their way out in front of the rest of the world.
Mary Lynne Dittmar: 10:21
Okay, And if you don't mind, I'm gonna take just a minute for our listeners who may not be as familiar with some of these acronyms. That's something we all slip into a part of the larger aerospace community. Um, so CLIPS is commercial, Lunar Payload Service is. And when John just referred to an SBIR. That's a small business, innovative research grant NASA has, along with many other agencies and SBIR program and then the space technology transfer program. Also the S T tr. So what kinds of architectures do you think I need to get built to get back to the moon and then from the moon to Mars. If you look ahead 20 years from now, 30 years from now, 50 years from now, where do you see all of us going?
John Thornton: 11:13
It starts with transportation. So we need landers that can take payloads to the moon and then also on to Mars. But after we have that, then we need to learn to use. The resource is of the location that we're going to further our exploration or potentially get deeper and deeper into space. Um, one of the first resource is that comes to mind is the water at the pull of the moon? Um, so if you can have water, you can split it into oxygen and hydrogen and condense it. And you just made rocket fuel so the moon could become ah, gas station for refueling Landers to go back and forth to the moon. But also we could use that moon fuel to get to Mars. We could take that fuel, fill our spacecraft at the moon and then go all the way out to Mars. There's been studies that have shown that you could reduce the cost to get to Mars by 50% or more if you can use moon fuel. So if we can harness energy from the moon and turn it into rocket fuel and create energy, it's kind of like creating the first oil for space, the first commodity in space that can store energy. Um and then beyond that, what other resource is, can we? Can we use our? They're rare earth metals that we could maybe send back here to Earth Are their materials on the moon that we could print replacement parts for for our spacecraft? As we go deeper in the space? Can we use that same technology to then create and print parts on Mars and other planetary destinations? Ultimately, we need to remove the tether of reliance on Earth for space exploration.
Mary Lynne Dittmar: 12:42
So we've already been talking for about 10 or 15 minutes. Believe it or not, um, it's been it's sort of in great to talk with you. One of the things that we really want to do with this podcast is give people sort of a clearer idea about what it takes to really be involved in the business of space. So if you were going to give someone advice. Who was thinking about starting a space business? I'm sure there's a whole lot of things that you would want to tell him, Um, but what would be the first top two kinds of things that pieces of advice that you would you would offer?
John Thornton: 13:15
I think one of the most important things for folks that are thinking about getting into space in building businesses there is that you have to have passion for it. You need passion no matter what business you're building, but definitely big time in space. And that's because there's going to be bad days, technically or business or anything else. Space is an unforgiving place where you oftentimes only have one chance to succeed. Um, and because of that, you're gonna face a ton of challenges along the day. Along the way. It's gonna be bad days, and you need passion in order to get through, to push yourself past it and and persevere and come out the other side and build something successful. So passion is is really, really important for for us based business,
Mary Lynne Dittmar: 14:01
Anything other than passion.
John Thornton: 14:04
Well, the other is you have to have a good business sense. So there's a lot of folks that try to start building businesses in space, but they start with a technology that they think is cool or an engineering solution that they think is cool but not one necessarily tied to, ah, market demand. So you have thio combine that that market demand with a great technical solutions are really then be able to try business and create something successful and sustainable into the future.
Mary Lynne Dittmar: 14:33
So that business case is really important. And, um, part of, ah thing. I'm always telling some companies that I'm coaching that are breaking into this field. Thio is the importance of capitalization, right?
John Thornton: 14:45
Absolutely.
Mary Lynne Dittmar: 14:46
It's critical to basically have enough money to be able to carry your business through that initial start up phase before you're generating a lot of revenue. Um, and you can find sources of revenue in several different places, depending on the strength of your business case in your management team, but that that falls right back into what you just said about the business case, where it's really important to sort of have those building blocks underneath you.
John Thornton: 15:11
Absolutely. And it sounds very simple and fundamental on basic. But there's a lot of companies out there that don't focus on that, and they're just kind of missing it because of it. So it's really, really important to build that that business case, and that starts with market and understanding the customer and understanding how you're going to get paid at the end of the day.
Mary Lynne Dittmar: 15:30
Is there, anything else you'd like our listeners to know about Astrabotic and your vision and your your path forward. I mean, it sounds like it's a really exciting time for you. You've been at it now for a while. You've got some great minds involved in creation of vast robotic and and the path forward. Is there anything else you'd like to share with our listeners?
John Thornton: 15:52
Yeah, it's a very exciting time for the company. Our first mission flies in the summer of 2021. We're gonna be operating it out of our brand new headquarters that we're building here in Pittsburgh, right next to Heinz Field, where the Steelers play for Pittsburgh. That'll be the first spacecraft built and flown from from the city up to the surface of the moon. I'm excited for Pittsburghers on the whole region to be a part of the mission on Once we go, we're gonna send back pictures and video and all kinds of things where where people can tune in and follow the mission along in real time on. And we hope that this is just the beginning of many, many deliveries to the surface of the moon so that we can really unlock the secrets of the moon and make it possible to take the next step deeper into space and get to Mars and beyond.
Mary Lynne Dittmar: 16:37
Well, we're really looking forward to that. We really are. So people want to learn more about Astrobotic. Where can they find you?
John Thornton: 16:44
You can follow us on Facebook, and you can also sign up for our emails right on our website. That's the best way to to track in real time what the company is up to.
Mary Lynne Dittmar: 16:53
Okay. Well, John, again, I can't thank you enough for taking the time out of your very busy schedule. Getting ready to send things to the surface of the moon to spend 15 minutes door, 20 minutes, given us a chat today and re look forward to seeing what happens with EST robotic and looking forward to your lunch in the in the middle of of 21. Well,
John Thornton: 17:16
Thank you, Mary Lynne. Appreciate it. Thanks for having me on.
Mary Lynne Dittmar: 17:18
OK, take care.